Polyamory and Cohabiting with Laura Boyle
Libby invites Laura Boyle of Ready for Polyamory to join her on the show to talk about living together, chores, finances, coparenting, and more - all things having to do with cohabiting and polyamory.
Laura's website: https://www.readyforpolyamory.com/Laura's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/readyforpolyamory/ Monogamy? In this Economy?
Also! Libby has created a workbook based on the most popular episodes of the podcast — with simple practices and reflection questions so that you can apply this stuff to your life.
Go to https://libbysinback.com/workbook to get your copy.
Transcript
Laura Boyle [00:00:03]:
I think in some ways it's the same problems that monogamous folks have, but larger because there are more people. Right. There's a lot of conventional wisdom that talks about how finances are one of the biggest things that drive divorces, and that's just as true for non monogamous people as it is for monogamous people. Money is such a taboo subject in our society, and combining households means you have to start talking about money, even if you're not going to combine finances and how to combine finances if you're going to.
Libby Sinback [00:00:48]:
Welcome to Making Polyamory Work. Hi, I'm Libby Sinback and I want to thank you for being with me today. I am committed to helping people who live and love outside the status quo, extraordinary relationships, because relationships are at the core of our well being as humans. I think love is why we're here and how we heal. Today's episode is actually one that I recorded back in 2024, if you can believe it. Why I didn't release it then is a story for another time. But it was nothing bad about the episode or the person in it. Who is the amazing Laura Boyle.
Libby Sinback [00:01:29]:
Laura is a parent, a partner, and a polyamorist of 18 years. She's also a relationship coach, and in 2024 she wrote the book Monogamy in this Finances, Child Rearing, and Practical Concerns of Polyamory. And I actually wrote the foreword to this book, which I was really, really.
Libby Sinback [00:01:48]:
Honored to be asked to do.
Libby Sinback [00:01:50]:
Laura personally practices non monogamy from a relationship anarchy informed approach. And if you've checked out her Instagram, which is readyfor polyamory, you'll see that she talks a lot about relationship anarchy and she teaches workshops on relationship anarchy. But she believes in helping everyone find the style of relationship that suits them best for their actual lives and loves, which, as we all know, can look a lot of different way, including monogamy for some folks. While this conversation did take place in 2024, I think it is just as relevant today as it was when we first talked. And our main topic of conversation is polyamory and cohabiting. Like living together, merging households, merging families, raising kids together. It's a topic I don't think is talked about enough and I hope you enjoy our conversation.
Libby Sinback [00:02:46]:
Welcome, Laura, to Making Polyamory work.
Laura Boyle [00:02:49]:
Hi, Libby. I'm glad to be here.
Libby Sinback [00:02:52]:
Oh, I'm so glad you're here. I'm so excited to have you on my show and we're going to talk about polyamory and cohabiting. But before we Just dive into our topic. Can you just introduce yourself to our listeners? You, the human?
Laura Boyle [00:03:08]:
Sure. So my name is Laura Boyle. I am the mom of two great kids, one of whom turned 10 very recently and the other is seven. And she would be very mad at me for not rounding her up to eight. But alas, it is still several months until she turns 8, so we're not going there yet. I don't need to age myself up the extra few months. And I have been polyamorous for. For somewhere on the order of 17, 18 years now I'm straddling that line.
Laura Boyle [00:03:44]:
And I like to use the term relationship anarchist because all the philosophies and principles sit there. But I understand that my actual relationships are in a polyamorous network with lots of people who don't love that term. So I also use polyamorous. And I've been writing this book called Monogamy in this Economy for a couple of years now. And so that is like three quarters of my identity at this point.
Libby Sinback [00:04:15]:
So Your identity is 1/4 Mom, 3/4 identity book?
Laura Boyle [00:04:19]:
Yeah, pretty much. I think other authors will agree that at some point, everyone around you has to be really forgiving because you, your entire life becomes the book.
Libby Sinback [00:04:30]:
And it's coming out when?
Laura Boyle [00:04:33]:
August 21, 2024. The publisher has confirmed there will be no further delays. That is the date.
Libby Sinback [00:04:40]:
Fantastic. And it's on pre order right now as we speak, am I right?
Laura Boyle [00:04:44]:
It is. You can get it from Amazon or Bookshop. I will give you both those links to put in the show notes.
Libby Sinback [00:04:51]:
Awesome. So maybe let's start there and maybe, hopefully this is going to weave in some things about you, the human still. Because I have a feeling just from hearing from you and from the conversations we've had, that writing this book was personal to you. So I guess I'm wondering, like, what within you motivated you to write the book?
Laura Boyle [00:05:14]:
So I work as a relationship coach, and the biggest part of my practice is helping people through the transitions of either moving in together, having new children and expanding their families, or breaking up. Right. And sometimes that breaking up involves splitting up households, sometimes it doesn't. But these sort of large transition points are most often what people come to see me about. And it felt like there hasn't been a good resource that I can offer them for what their possibilities are at these transition points. So the book is about personal stories, but also just expanding people's ideas of what their possibilities are at the transition points of how you build a polyamorous household.
Libby Sinback [00:06:13]:
Yeah, I love that it's interesting that you have really narrowed down. This is what I tend to help people with is these big transitions, these big life transitions of either binding households, adding people to households, or separating households. And I'm wondering, you know, not to give too much away of what's in the book, but I guess I'm wondering what are some of the big challenges that show up for people who are in those transitional moments that you notice? Is there a pattern that you see?
Laura Boyle [00:06:43]:
So I think in some ways it's the same problems that monogamous folks have, but writ larger because there are more people. Right. There's a lot of conventional wisdom that talks about how finances are one of the biggest things that drive divorces. And that's just as true for non monogamous people as it is for monogamous people. Money is such a taboo subject in our society. And combining households means you have to start talking about money, even if you're not going to combine finances. Yes. And how to combine finances? If you're going to.
Laura Boyle [00:07:20]:
Are you going to create extra bank accounts? How are people going to pay into them? If you're doing that, what's a shared expense and what's not? Right. If only some of you are the parents of children, is everyone going to parent children automatically if they move into the house? Right. These are giant conversations to have.
Libby Sinback [00:07:41]:
Yes.
Laura Boyle [00:07:42]:
Hopefully people have been having for months in advance of moving in together, but.
Libby Sinback [00:07:47]:
A lot of times they're not actually. Right.
Laura Boyle [00:07:49]:
Right. Or they're having like an eighth of the conversation before moving in. It's like an iceberg.
Libby Sinback [00:07:56]:
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I like that analogy. That it's an iceberg. Yeah. Even as you were talking, a thing that just came up for me is, so I live with my husband, my husband's partner, and our two kids. So there's five of us and we live in a five bedroom house. Everyone has their own room.
Libby Sinback [00:08:14]:
But two people here don't contribute to the mortgage. And the question can come up like, we figured it out in our own way. But the thing that I sometimes wonder about is like, how does it work out when some people in your household are parents, some people in your household are not parents. How you divide up the cost of housing? Do you divide up the cost of housing? Let's say the mortgage was like $500 a month, which of course it never would be. But let's imagine for a minute that the mortgage of the house was $500 a month. Would I need to pay 100 for me, 100 for each of my children? Because they Each have a bedroom and then my spouse would pay 100 and then my other partner would pay 100. Like each person needs to contribute, which means that the two adults that are parents would contribute 4/5 of the mortgage. Or would we split it three ways between the adults? And I don't even know.
Libby Sinback [00:09:04]:
I'm wondering, have you had that kind of question come up?
Laura Boyle [00:09:08]:
Right. So lots of people think like that. They think in terms of number of bedrooms used, right? And still other people equalize that. And I'm putting that in scare quotes by doing things like using additional bedrooms or additional den space or additional office space and giving that to the non parenting adults to again in scare quotes, compensate them for the fact that they're paying an equal amount when they're not getting equal space out of the house if they're not parenting as well. For still other people, it doesn't matter. They knew they were moving in with children. Especially if it's the parenting adults who owned the home and were on the mortgage to begin with. It depends in what direction the moving in occurred some of the time.
Laura Boyle [00:10:02]:
And also it can really vary depending on how tight the space is. Are you all moving in and children are displacing what used to be guest rooms? Are you all moving in together? And children getting older means that adults are getting less and less private space because you're making choices about giving children more private space to teach them the value of privacy.
Libby Sinback [00:10:32]:
Well, I also imagine like another piece would be like finances getting tighter too, right? Like depending on how tight your finances are, how much abundance you have, and maybe the differentials between abundance between the different adults, like that could also affect how you'd feel about it. Because I think the thing that's important about money is that it's emotional as much as it is just logical. There are so many different ways you can logic it.
Laura Boyle [00:10:56]:
Right. So I open the chapter on finances by saying none of this is financial advice and also note some common ways that people do this and that. The most common pattern I noticed is that people who are generally well off both are less emotional about money and are more likely to assume that everyone is constantly in a state of owing each other money. Oh, wow. And that's normal. One of my partners who grew up very poor describes as nickel and dime all of their friends over every sandwich you have out over whose turn it is to pay for what you just. You may owe your friend 8.50 for something when you actually make three times as much as them. Right.
Laura Boyle [00:11:51]:
And that's still perfectly Normal to people who grow up really well off, it's.
Libby Sinback [00:11:56]:
Normal not just to owe each other, it sounds like, but also to insist on being paid back. Am I getting it?
Laura Boyle [00:12:02]:
Well, right. And to have money be moving.
Libby Sinback [00:12:06]:
Yeah. Right.
Laura Boyle [00:12:07]:
Like, money is a fluid thing for people who grow up a certain amount of well off.
Libby Sinback [00:12:14]:
Okay.
Laura Boyle [00:12:15]:
Whereas for folks who don't, often big bills are emotional or the state of not having enough money, and I'm putting that in scare quotes, is a very emotional feeling. But small things are things that either you do or you don't do, depending on whether or not you feel equipped to do them. And you forgive small amounts very easily. You either do or don't treat someone. And you would never think about, like, owing somebody for a sandwich or needing to very strictly go back and forth on you and a partner treating each other.
Libby Sinback [00:12:56]:
So there's, like, less scorekeeping happening there.
Laura Boyle [00:12:59]:
Right. And that difference shows up enormously in romantic relationships.
Libby Sinback [00:13:05]:
Oh, wow. Yeah, I bet.
Laura Boyle [00:13:07]:
And in monogamous relationships, that often gets erased at the point of marriage because people merge finances and then it's all our money in scare quotes. But in polyamorous relationships, that doesn't get erased. It becomes a new issue again. When other people's money becomes involved.
Libby Sinback [00:13:31]:
Yeah.
Laura Boyle [00:13:32]:
Or when more additional partners become involved. Or when different people's new attitudes come into the mix and you dredge up issues that you thought you had put to bed. Oh, gosh.
Libby Sinback [00:13:50]:
Yeah. Well, and another thing is just coming up for me is that when you're saying, like, there are a lot of monogamous people who they put all their money in the same pot and then they, in scare quotes, don't have to talk about it anymore. It becomes a quote unquote, non issue. Of course it becomes an issue. I've definitely heard right. Like, often if there's a person who's earning more money in a monogamous dynamic and all the money's in one pot, resentment can build for the lower earning partner. Or if one partner's, like, doing unpaid labor at home, then they don't feel the same amount of agency or empowerment around spending because it's not, quote, unquote, their money. Because they are, you know, all this stuff happens in monogamous relationships, but they often.
Libby Sinback [00:14:33]:
My experience has been they don't talk about it.
Laura Boyle [00:14:35]:
Right. It's different issues.
Libby Sinback [00:14:37]:
They just feel it and then they think it and they make up a lot of stories. But in. It sounds like in a thing that can show up in polyamorous relationships when there's that combining of Households. And therefore that sharing of resources, if I'm hearing you right, is that it suddenly becomes a thing that you have to talk about.
Laura Boyle [00:14:56]:
Right. It shines a light on all of these issues that you may have felt that you put to bed.
Libby Sinback [00:15:02]:
You already thought you knew. Yeah.
Laura Boyle [00:15:04]:
Right. And so you have to redefine a lot of things that you may have thought you'd already defined clearly.
Libby Sinback [00:15:12]:
Right.
Laura Boyle [00:15:14]:
And so this is common in polyamory in general. Right. There's a lot of talk in the community of polyamory will shine a light on issues that already existed.
Libby Sinback [00:15:24]:
Right.
Laura Boyle [00:15:24]:
In your relationship if you're opening up from a monogamous relationship. But this is doubly so if you're going from we had been open and thought we'd already shined a light on everything to we're reevaluating our living situation. Right. Because folks put a lot of stock in the habits of how they live.
Libby Sinback [00:15:50]:
Right.
Libby Sinback [00:15:51]:
Well, and a lot of your well being is tied up in that.
Laura Boyle [00:15:53]:
Right. And often you get into patterns and a lot of identity and alignment in terms of like, this is just how we are.
Libby Sinback [00:16:04]:
Right.
Laura Boyle [00:16:04]:
And there's a lot of we in that. A lot of the relationship in capital letters.
Libby Sinback [00:16:12]:
Right.
Laura Boyle [00:16:13]:
And a lot of polyamory is taking apart the relationship in capital letters and having the individuals interact with.
Libby Sinback [00:16:22]:
Yes.
Laura Boyle [00:16:23]:
And find what's best for each individual.
Libby Sinback [00:16:26]:
Well, and what I'm thinking about too, when I think about my own cohabiting experience is that even when two people are first moving in together, there's a like. And I've had clients where that's been their experience where it's just like they've been together and then they're moving in together and it's just the two of them. So far they're non monogamous, but they, these are. They're moving into a cohabiting situation. And that's a rough bump too. Just that. And then when I think about my own situation where I've been cohabiting now with my spouse for 14 years, I think at this point, and how much we just had to work out with each other over time, like through explicit negotiation, through trial and error, to find a rhythm that felt good to both of us, like that, where we could just understand, like, okay, we need a certain amount of space from each other. We need a certain amount of alone time.
Libby Sinback [00:17:23]:
You know, this is how we're going to talk about spending and how we're not going to talk about spending. Those different kinds of rhythms. And then you bring in kids and that changes Everything all over again. Like you said, not just with money, but definitely with money, because that's two people who are not earning anything, who are huge expenses and how you think about that. But of course, they don't get to really weigh in when they're that small yet about how money gets spent. But then you have another person, another adult coming into the mix, which is. Which was our experience, and we had to reorient the whole system. And frankly, if I'm being honest, we've been living with my partner's partner for four years now, and we're still figuring that out.
Libby Sinback [00:18:13]:
Like, we're still. It's. I don't want to say that we have it all figured out, especially around money and domestic labor. And we got the Fair Play cards from Eve Rodsky's work, and we started sorting through them and just noticing how the labor was getting divided up. But we haven't even come close to figuring out exactly where all those cards go and who needs to own each one. And I'm just thinking about the amount of time it can take to figure all that out and then to disrupt it all with a new person or a child and then disrupt it again with another new person or a child or disrupt it again when someone leaves. It's just I have so much compassion and empathy because I'm on that journey for that. And so I.
Libby Sinback [00:18:58]:
I guess I'd love to know. Obviously, again, don't want to give away too much of the book, but, like, when you. So one theme I heard is money just shows up, and it's a big bright light that gets shined on a lot of issues when people are in that. Oh, shit. I just realized we have a bunch of issues, and this is way harder than I thought it would be. Like, does your book. I know your book is a lot of data, but I also know you have some advice or some ideas in there. So I guess, like, do you have one or two tips for, like, how to move through that?
Laura Boyle [00:19:29]:
Yes. So first, I do want to note that the biggest, like, data point that I found is that most polyamorous households are three adults. Because of this, right? Because the more people you get past that, the harder it is to get everybody on the same page.
Libby Sinback [00:19:49]:
It's just hard. It's more complex.
Laura Boyle [00:19:50]:
It just becomes more complex the more people you add. And so three is the highest number, and then it gets percentage wise smaller the more people you add past that.
Libby Sinback [00:20:02]:
What's the biggest household? Wait, I want to interrupt. What's the biggest household from the people that you talk to.
Laura Boyle [00:20:06]:
Of the folks I spoke to in the sample of 462 folks who responded, I got one household of eight adults, and that was the largest. And it went down from there.
Libby Sinback [00:20:20]:
Okay, eight adults, okay.
Laura Boyle [00:20:22]:
Yes. And there were a couple of seven wow. Person households.
Libby Sinback [00:20:27]:
But three is the. What do they call that?
Laura Boyle [00:20:30]:
By far the most common. It was over half. So I subtitled the second chapter the power of three because it felt like there being three people was like sort of an extra little burst of possibility for a lot of people. But being really deliberate, Having explicit conversations before your actual move in, having regular check ins about whether or not systems are working and recognizing that you may have to adjust things. Right. That like, things like chores especially are not going to automatically work the way you imagine they will the first time you try a system.
Libby Sinback [00:21:25]:
Right.
Laura Boyle [00:21:26]:
And giving yourselves grace about that is really important.
Libby Sinback [00:21:30]:
Yeah.
Laura Boyle [00:21:31]:
Knowing that, giving yourselves. The thing that I heard the most often from households that were relatively successful about this was trying out systems where you divided your chores first based on who liked a particular chore, if anyone liked any of them, and then who hated them the least, following that as the start of how you did a subdivision of what were necessary household tasks. And then once you got past that, going, okay, what are daily things? And dividing them amongst people relatively evenly so that you didn't end up with one person who had all daily activities and someone else who had all monthly ones Were the like top kind of things that people in follow up interviews gave me.
Libby Sinback [00:22:22]:
Yeah. In my house, I would say we've done some of that. Some of the. Who likes this chore or who hates it the least? I think another one that I'd add to that is just who cares about it a lot?
Laura Boyle [00:22:33]:
Yes.
Libby Sinback [00:22:33]:
You know, because if you care about something and you have a way you like it done, sometimes you can teach someone else to do it if they don't mind. But I think a lot of times it's less friction if you just go, okay, I have the way I like it. I'm gonna do it.
Laura Boyle [00:22:49]:
Right. If you are someone who will chase someone and redo it after them, you need to claim that chore. Probably like, I care a lot that the dishes are done.
Libby Sinback [00:23:00]:
Yeah.
Laura Boyle [00:23:00]:
I do not care how they're stacked in the cabinet.
Libby Sinback [00:23:03]:
Right.
Laura Boyle [00:23:04]:
It will make me insane if they pile up on the counter for days. So long as they are done daily, I do not care who does them or how.
Libby Sinback [00:23:15]:
Right, Right.
Laura Boyle [00:23:16]:
So if we can all agree that dishes are a daily chore, that's all I need. In a household.
Libby Sinback [00:23:21]:
Right.
Laura Boyle [00:23:22]:
But if you're like my mother and you need them to be stacked in a very particular manner and the cups need to face a particular way and like things like this, you need to claim that choreograph.
Libby Sinback [00:23:36]:
Yeah. And maybe what you're claiming is I put them away, but you wash them. Or you wash the pots and pans, but I load the dishwasher because I like the dishwasher loaded a particular way or something like that.
Laura Boyle [00:23:49]:
Right. Somebody might have a particular dishwasher. Loading style. My mother and grandfather used to struggle every time we went on family vacations over who could load the dishwasher because each of them had a particular method and they clashed.
Libby Sinback [00:24:04]:
Yeah.
Laura Boyle [00:24:04]:
And both of them were the home dishwasher person.
Libby Sinback [00:24:09]:
Hey, real quick, before we get back to the episode, if you've been listening to this show for a while and you've been nodding along but been feeling stuck and making these ideas part of your reality, well, I made something for you. It's a workbook based on the most popular episodes of the show with simple practices and reflection questions so that you can apply this stuff to your life. Just head to Libby sinback.com workbook and grab your copy. I'm curious, even as we're talking about this now, based on your research, which I heard you say we did, you did a survey of over 400 families, polyamorous households, and which I think is an incredible data set. Just this is more your hot take. Like, how would you make the distinction between a group of polyamorous people trying to cohabit together and just a bunch of roommates trying to work out a system to live together?
Laura Boyle [00:25:04]:
So I think there are so many lessons in this book that can be taken for roommates who want to figure out their lives, for blended families who want to figure out what they're doing if they're trying to, like, nest and make their transition in a way where they can stay in the same house for their children? Right. I don't think this is actually particularly polyamory exclusive with the exception of the chapter on metamorph relationships.
Libby Sinback [00:25:39]:
Can you say more about that?
Laura Boyle [00:25:40]:
So my book includes things like being grown ups and talking about how you feel if you're going to overhear people in the house having sex and about what your boundaries are around things like, is it different if it's someone who lives in the home versus if it's someone who doesn't?
Libby Sinback [00:26:05]:
What's the it is what different the.
Laura Boyle [00:26:08]:
Is your feeling about overhearing sex happening in the House different if it's like your partner and the meta who you live with or like the partners whom you live with, if you're all in one relationship versus your partner and a meta who lives outside the home.
Libby Sinback [00:26:25]:
Who's a guest.
Laura Boyle [00:26:25]:
Right.
Libby Sinback [00:26:26]:
Yeah, gotcha.
Laura Boyle [00:26:26]:
Yeah. Who's a guest coming in. Right. And so these kinds of things are a little bit exclusive to Polyamory, but a little bit not. Right. Like, roommates need to have these conversations.
Libby Sinback [00:26:39]:
You could still be roommates and have a guest and not have not want to hear loud sex happening from your roommate whether you're in a relationship with them or not. Yeah.
Laura Boyle [00:26:47]:
Or even quiet sex. I've had roommates who were like, we need to set quiet hours and we need to have a system where we let each other know if we're having someone over who we intend to be sexy with so that we can be out while the other person is doing that. It was a little bit surprising to me how many people are willing to live together but are not willing to have sexuality happen at a time when their other partners are home at all. As someone who is maybe much more comfortable with this than the average, I have lived in a one bedroom apartment with a partner and just been like, oh, if I come home during your date, I'll put on some headphones and hang out in the living room and make myself the futon as a bed. I'm not that worried about it. Like, I. Partly it's that I came up in Polyamory in an urban area where we didn't have a lot of space nor a lot of money to rent somewhere bigger. But.
Laura Boyle [00:27:46]:
And so like, you develop a different skill set.
Libby Sinback [00:27:49]:
You just have to be more flexible.
Laura Boyle [00:27:50]:
But partly I think it's just a matter of different people's comfort levels being in very different places.
Libby Sinback [00:27:59]:
Yeah.
Laura Boyle [00:28:00]:
Or different people's comfort around this topic being substantially different. And like, I saw a post from a fellow content creator online and it had a lot of comments of people being absolutely shocked that they would dare to have private time that might possibly include sexuality while their children were awake and their co parents were watching them in the home.
Libby Sinback [00:28:28]:
Huh. Interesting.
Laura Boyle [00:28:31]:
And like, to me, that's just not a big deal so long as they're not having Shake the house wild acrobatics. Right. If you're just quietly doing your thing.
Libby Sinback [00:28:46]:
Right. And you lock the door. Right.
Laura Boyle [00:28:49]:
The door's locked. Your partner and the kids are across the home, and you and your other partner are in a locked door room, who cares? I think that's fair game.
Libby Sinback [00:29:02]:
What's interesting, as you're painting that scenario, I'm in agreement with you some. I don't want to go too deeply into this right now, but, like, I had read somewhere, like, even just the parents of children having sex while the children were awakened at home was considered, like, I can't believe that you would do that. And apparently somebody piped back, that's like a cultural thing of white puritanical America, but that tons of other cultures with other living and housing situations, like, it wasn't even an option if you were going to have sex, you were going to have sex and your kids were going to know mom and dad have the door locked, and that's their private time. And you wouldn't see it necessarily, but you would know that's mom and dad's romantic time. And it wasn't inappropriate in any way.
Laura Boyle [00:29:44]:
It's not like, gross or inappropriate. It's just a thing.
Libby Sinback [00:29:48]:
It's just part of life.
Laura Boyle [00:29:50]:
And so I think this cultural thing where we are making private time, like, so long as it's not exceedingly loud, exceedingly late at night, like, keeping people up all night.
Libby Sinback [00:30:04]:
And that's just rude for anybody, like, not just children, but again, that's just been considerate, even if you were listening to loud music or.
Laura Boyle [00:30:12]:
Right. I think it's just creating a culture where, as roommates, we are creating a culture where we're all deeply uncomfortable with this.
Libby Sinback [00:30:19]:
Yeah.
Laura Boyle [00:30:20]:
And so I think you do have to feel out the boundaries of the people you're moving in with. And these boundaries might be a lot tighter or a lot looser than you expect, depending on whom it is. And you may not have encountered this while you were living in different spaces.
Libby Sinback [00:30:38]:
Yeah. And it can change, right?
Laura Boyle [00:30:41]:
Yeah. And it can change over time, depending on comfort and depending on how long you live together.
Libby Sinback [00:30:47]:
Yeah. So it's interesting. Even with the sex question, it's not necessarily different than roommates. So I think that's fascinating also. Right on the money. I want to shift into a different question here, which is. I know you get this question a lot. I get this question a lot of, like, polyamory with kids living together with more than one partner with kids.
Libby Sinback [00:31:05]:
Can it be done? Like, how does that even work? And I guess I'm. I wanted to have your take on. Since you did all of this research and all of these surveys, what's your main takeaway of, like, how if it is. If it feels different or, like, especially challenging to create a polyamorous household with kids.
Laura Boyle [00:31:27]:
So the only real challenges that Folks described were, if some of the folks who were cohabiting weren't parenting, there were additional logistical challenges. Right. Because then you have to figure out what's a shared expense, what's not a shared expense, how are you covering kids stuff or not covering kids stuff? And that's a little harder. And then also, if only one parent is moving into a polyamorous household with children and that person has a co parent who doesn't approve of polyamory, it can be very challenging because in some areas you are not particularly safe to disclose a polyamorous identity while being a parent. Like, you have to have a pretty ironclad custody agreement to know that your ex's position is relatively on your side and that all the grandparents positions are relatively on your side to know that someone won't bring any kind of action against you.
Libby Sinback [00:32:37]:
Yeah, I'm really glad you mentioned that because I think that's not what a lot of people think about when they think about parenting. They think about like, how do we protect the children from, I don't know, some imagined scary thing that would happen with multiple partners. But I think the real scary thing is that some disapproving family member would get the state involved and have those children lose access to their family.
Laura Boyle [00:33:04]:
To their family, to their caring adults, to the people who take care of them.
Libby Sinback [00:33:07]:
Yes.
Laura Boyle [00:33:08]:
And so much of the time, like disapproving grandparents and disapproving exes who want to use the legal system to manipulate the situation are the biggest threat to polyamorous parents and their children.
Libby Sinback [00:33:31]:
Yeah, I would say to the children and their well being for sure. Like once your child is no longer allowed to have their caregivers, like that's a trauma. Like that's a huge trauma for children.
Laura Boyle [00:33:42]:
And to be fair, in many states at this point, that is much less of a threat. But it depends what state you're in and the judge county you're in, what the judges are like in your region. And in fact, the legal protections are very limited. They only exist currently in three cities. Those are the only places where there are real legal non discrimination protection.
Libby Sinback [00:34:10]:
It also probably depends on your socioeconomic.
Laura Boyle [00:34:13]:
Status and economic status, your marginalization. Right. Are you less marginalized in a million ways? You're going to be luckier.
Libby Sinback [00:34:24]:
Right?
Laura Boyle [00:34:25]:
Right. Can you basically prove that you are in every other way fit? You have a much better chance even with all of that. If you're in a conservative enough place with a conservative enough judge, you will be in bad shape. And we are lucky that we are currently In a time of legal progress. And three towns have passed non discrimination ordinances. Berkeley, California, Cambridge, Massachusetts and Somerville, Massachusetts. Currently, another town in California is considering passing one. And the folks at the Chosen Family Law center are doing great work to help promote similar model law in a bunch of other places.
Laura Boyle [00:35:17]:
We just aren't there in terms of statewide or national recognition or non discrimination.
Libby Sinback [00:35:27]:
Yeah. So other than needing to protect your kids from basically prejudice and someone trying to actively harm their family through their own disapproval, is there anything else that you would say is particularly challenging or different about raising kids with multiple adults in a household?
Laura Boyle [00:35:46]:
It's the same as trying to raise them monogamously. You figure it out as you go.
Libby Sinback [00:35:52]:
You.
Laura Boyle [00:35:54]:
Occasionally have the same problem that the kids of queer parents have where your kids make a mistaken assumption and you have to correct them. My son, at 3 years old went to preschool and went to family day, like the talk about your family's day, and came home and went, did you know that some people only have one mom?
Libby Sinback [00:36:16]:
Yeah.
Laura Boyle [00:36:16]:
And was like telling us how sorry he felt for his poor classmates who only had one mom. So some kids only have one mom? Most kids only have one mom.
Libby Sinback [00:36:26]:
Yeah.
Laura Boyle [00:36:26]:
And he was like, really? What do they do?
Libby Sinback [00:36:31]:
That's so cute. I would say that's my experience too, is that polyamorous parenting is just parenting. And I would say that the same things that you run into with having multiple adults is the same thing you'd have with more than just one adult, which is both more adults equals more caregivers, but also more adults equals more people to get on the same page with, around what we're doing, how we're going to raise these kids, what kind of discipline we might give for certain types of behavioral things, how we're going to manage screen time and all of that. But that's true of divorced couples who have step parents. And those folks might decide, like, how do I integrate myself and my ideas about raising children and all of that. So I don't think it's that different either. For the most part.
Laura Boyle [00:37:18]:
Yes. One of my favorite families who I spoke to through the survey were a triad who had broken down. And now each member of that triad had a new partner who was helping parent these kids some of the time. So these kids had six parents functionally in two households because two of the people had continued living together even though they weren't romantically involved.
Libby Sinback [00:37:48]:
Right.
Laura Boyle [00:37:48]:
And super well adjusted kids. Very sweet. But do you know how hard it is to get six people to agree to anything?
Libby Sinback [00:37:58]:
Yeah.
Laura Boyle [00:37:58]:
And so the three Original parents had written up their custody agreement. They had one of the first three parent custody agreements in their state, and they had written up their custody agreements to say that their kids had three and only three legal parents. So that if there was ever a big enough disagreement, the three of them could pull rank and say, we are the parents. But that, to me was like the epitome of, yeah, six people with too many people to get on board. So we've made it so that we only have to get three people on board. And it's wild.
Libby Sinback [00:38:31]:
Yeah, it's hard to get six people to decide where to go out to eat, let alone whether dating is allowed at age 12 or not.
Laura Boyle [00:38:40]:
Right. Or is this the correct after school program?
Libby Sinback [00:38:45]:
Yeah. I want to, like, just wrap up with one last question because I feel like there's so much in this book and I think you just have to read the book if you want all the juicy stuff. And so I hope you will, because I don't think there's anything out there like this. So I recommend just getting the book, but I just want to go to the book's title because I have heard some. Because monogamy in this economy, that's. That's been a little bit of a slogan. Like, I've seen it on Twitter, I've seen it on T shirts, and it's a little tongue in cheek quip. And for you, what made you decide that this was the title of your book?
Laura Boyle [00:39:22]:
So for me, partly it's that I'm bad at titling things and the joke aspect appealed to me. The subtitle Finances, Child Rearing and Other Practical Concerns of Polyamory is the part that does it for me. Right. It says what it does on the tin. Right. But monogamy in this economy kind of catches you a little. And also I mentioned it like three times throughout the book. I go, ah, yes, the moment where we would joke monogamy in this economy.
Laura Boyle [00:40:02]:
Because I mentioned that this is the point where you end up saving money because of this. Or like, they moved in together because they needed to save money. Parentheses the old monogamy in this economy.
Libby Sinback [00:40:15]:
Yeah.
Laura Boyle [00:40:15]:
Because sometimes folks really do choose to move into the smaller apartment to save money.
Libby Sinback [00:40:22]:
Yeah.
Laura Boyle [00:40:22]:
You do want to save on the second rent.
Libby Sinback [00:40:26]:
They save on the second rent. Or save on transportation costs to see each other. Or. Yeah. With housing, the most expensive it has ever been in the history of at least the United States. It does drive people to blunt households, for sure. Yeah.
Laura Boyle [00:40:44]:
And we are just polyamorous people, despite what certain publications would have us believe is lived by people of every demographic. And so we are, most of us feeling the crunch of how expensive everything is.
Libby Sinback [00:41:05]:
Yeah. Actually, can we bust that right now? The idea that polyamorous people are all rich, because the people who are getting written about in the New York Times, a lot of people in New York City are rich. The people who can afford to live in New York City and the people who the journalists are talking to because they know them, they might be rich. But people all over the country, I would say, I think I read a study that. Or a statistic that was like, actually, polyamorous people on the whole, in the United States at least, are lower income on the whole than the average.
Laura Boyle [00:41:38]:
So I know from my survey more polyamorous people rent than own, which on average indicates lower income and less credit.
Libby Sinback [00:41:53]:
Worthiness and less wealth. Like, less overall accumulated wealth.
Laura Boyle [00:41:58]:
Like, we don't have the money sitting somewhere to put down a down payment. These are just statistical likelihoods. The studies that exist from the last 10ish years or so, 2014 to 2023, indicate that polyamorous people come from every demographic in North America. There is no substantial difference in what religion we are, what race we are, what socioeconomic background we come from. Yes, there are rich polyamorous people, but there are also quite poor polyamorous people.
Libby Sinback [00:42:35]:
Yeah.
Laura Boyle [00:42:36]:
And there's everyone in between. And yeah, when New York magazine wants to make polyamory look great, they find the most Park Slope people possible, and they imply that polyamory was invented there in or around the year 2012. And like, I think I heard Ezra Klein say that on Dan Savage. So I believe I am stealing that line.
Libby Sinback [00:42:59]:
Oh, no.
Laura Boyle [00:43:00]:
But like, Ezra Klein said that as a joke to this.
Libby Sinback [00:43:04]:
Oh, thank goodness. I was like, please, Ezra Klein.
Laura Boyle [00:43:08]:
He was like, I want to explain that this is impossible because we all know that this didn't happen. No, but it's this thing of, clearly this is not how this happened. And some people treat their polyamory as a political statement in that sense of, like, all our actions are political speech. But some people very much don't and are living their life in a model that fits the status quo or a model that is extremely monogamy plus one. And both of those things, all of those things are valid. I don't want to tell people that they can't live their life however they see fit. But when the media chooses to focus only on the one that is extremely status quo and rich and to say, hey, this is a thing that rich people in the wellness industry are trying to sell you.
Libby Sinback [00:44:11]:
Right.
Laura Boyle [00:44:13]:
You should ignore it when in fact, there's a wide variety of things going on. And you can do this in any way you like, including in ways that are extremely community driven, extremely politically interesting.
Libby Sinback [00:44:29]:
And that are grounded in family, that are grounded in not. It's because I feel like it's often sold as like this thing that people are doing that's decadent and opulent and. And there's this New York Times columnist who's been just bemoaning the general, like, decadence of American culture right now. And he's a very conservative dude. And I'm just kind of. That's not a lot of. For a lot of people, it's just they want to make their. They want to build connection and have family and love each other and be.
Libby Sinback [00:44:58]:
Just exist.
Laura Boyle [00:44:59]:
We can have chosen family without this dude deciding that. Chosen family is the same as Gen Z splurging on groceries, which was a Business Insider headline this week that was the most depressing thing I've ever read. So we live in a capitalist hellscape that wants to make it look like all of our choices are actually an extravagance that we, the working class, should not be having. So we can dismiss that and accept the reality that there are polyamorous from all walks of life. And if they'd like to have some view of the vast variety of ways that they can consider combining their households, taking them back apart, or problem solving within that, I hope that they'll take a minute to give the book a reading. It really helps if people pre order. I have been told by my publisher that pre orders are what drive bookstores to actually carry the book.
Libby Sinback [00:46:02]:
Nice.
Laura Boyle [00:46:02]:
So I would love it if you guys click the links and go do a pre order. It would make me really happy. Libby wrote the foreword. It's also really good. She's been really nice to not mention it while we do this whole interview, but like, it's also really good. And you should read the book and read the forward. So guys, you should get it.
Libby Sinback [00:46:25]:
You're taking away all my lines. I was gonna say all that to. Go get the book. Do the thing. Yeah. And Laura, I just really want to appreciate you for being here and being in this conversation with me. I've loved talking to you and yes, I'll just say it again.
Laura Boyle [00:46:43]:
Go get the book. Thank you for having me.
Libby Sinback [00:46:51]:
Thank you so much for joining me today. If you have any thoughts about this episode or a question you'd like me to answer on the show, I would love to hear from you. You can find me on Instagram at hatpollyamm or you can find me on my website@libby sinback.com youm can also leave a comment on the episode on the Spotify platform and I read all of those and reply to most of them. If my podcasts are helping you but you feel like you'd like even more support, I do this for a living. I am a coach and I help individuals, couples and groups have amazing relationships. You can find out more about my offerings on my website. If you love this podcast, please share it with your friends, your networks, your Facebook groups, etc. And make sure you subscribe so you don't miss an episode.
Libby Sinback [00:47:37]:
Also, if you listen on itunes or Spotify, it makes a really big difference if you leave a review or a comment because that helps more people find the show. And thank you so much to everyone who's already done that. Making Polyamory Work is created by me, Libby Sinback. It's edited by the team at Assistify Coaching and hosted on the Spotify Podcasts platform. Ioana Luca manages the website and posts the transcripts.
