Leaning In
Libby invites her spouse, Drew, to talk the established partner's side of the experience Libby described in ‘Gamechanger’ episode.
Also! Libby has created a workbook based on the most popular episodes of the podcast — with simple practices and reflection questions so that you can apply this stuff to your life.
Go to https://libbysinback.com/workbook to get your copy.
Transcript
Drew:
When you're with someone, even if you're in an open relationship, you're kind of like, well, you know, I'll be able to do it next month. Or, you know, next month will be good. Or, you know, we'll make it work. We love each other. It'll be fine.
Libby Sinback:
Well, and we're in this for the long haul, right?
Drew:
And we're in this for the long haul.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Drew:
And then when it just happens with someone else and it seems easy, you know, there's a lot there.
Libby Sinback:
Welcome to making polyamory work. Hi, I'm Libby Sinback, and I want to thank you for being with me today. I'm committed to helping people who live and love outside the status quo have extraordinary relationships, because relationships are at the core of our well being as humans. I think love is why we're here and how we heal. There's a very special guest today on making polyamory work. My partner, my spouse, my co parent, my lover, Drew. Drew's been on the podcast before, but it's literally been years. And so I thought it was time to bring him back.
Libby Sinback:
And one of the reasons is that, you know, I thought it would be useful to hear his side in response to the last episode on what happens when you're in a game changer relationship. Like, what happens when you're the established partner of someone who goes through something like that? And this conversation is really personal, and it's just our story. It's not like a manual for how to do it. But what I know is that sometimes stories are really helpful. And the truth is, we did make it through a really challenging experience and are better for it on the other side. And I think people need to hear stories like that. I also really want to appreciate Drew for being willing to talk about this with me in a very public way because it's vulnerable. My hope is, as you listen, that you will listen with a kind and compassionate heart, because this is literally one of the hardest times in our relationship that we're talking about.
Libby Sinback:
I also welcome your curious questions. I welcome your thoughts, and I will see you on the other side. Hey.
Drew:
Hey.
Libby Sinback:
Welcome to the show. I think I want to start with this question. What advice would you have for someone who finds themselves in the situation you were in?
Drew:
I think for me, it was getting to the point where I really asked myself, why am I in this relationship? Was it really about how you were acting towards me or how you felt towards me or what I was getting out of that, or was it the things that I was doing? By being in the relationship and, you know, taking, taking on that part of it for myself and saying, oh, no, I actually really like what I'm doing here. I like being your partner was really pivotal for me.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. So if you were going to translate to advice for someone else, how would you put it?
Drew:
Take stock of what you're doing and why you're doing it. You know, I think you talk a lot about people just getting into relationships, assuming that there's a certain plan and not actually evaluating why they're doing what they're doing and what they want out of it is, that's one thing. But also who you are in it is the really empowering thing. Right?
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. And so when you said that thing about, like, think about why you're there and are you there because of how someone else feels about you or what you're even imagining that they're feeling about you, whether that's true or not. Right. Like, how would that be? Not a, like, why wouldn't I want to be in a relationship with someone because of how much they love me? Like, why wouldn't that be a good idea? I don't understand.
Drew:
I, I mean, I do, I do want to be loved. And in this case, you know, I, I, there wasn't a lack of love that I felt, but it was more like, why, why, why am I focused so much on what you're doing when that's not really what I, what I value?
Libby Sinback:
Ouch.
Drew:
No, no, no. Not, not that I don't value what you're doing, but like, that's not my thing to, to drive, you know?
Libby Sinback:
Totally. Yeah, that makes sense.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
And so what was yours to drive.
Drew:
Was me, what I, what I'm doing, what I wanted, what I wanted to ask for, what I wanted to do with my time, how I wanted to show up, how I wanted to care for you, how I wanted to care for myself, you know?
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. So let's back up a little bit. Some folks may have already listened to the previous episode that I did where it was me talking about what it's like when you get in a relationship with someone who just changes the whole game, which happened to us and I told my story. But from your perspective, what's the story that we're talking about here?
Drew:
I don't know where to start talking. Talking about you and me and us going through a big period in our relationship where you were seeing someone else. I was really upset about it.
Libby Sinback:
To be clear, we'd been non monogamous for years at that point.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
What was hard about it for you.
Drew:
You were finding sexual connection and a romantic connection with someone who was able to give you things that you really wanted, that you felt like I hadn't been able to or it hadn't clicked for us.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Drew:
And that was really hard for me.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. What was hard about it?
Drew:
I mean, because I want to give you all the things you want and do it well. And, you know, there are reasons why sometimes that's been really hard for me. And, you know, when you're with someone, even if you're in an open relationship, you're kind of like, well, you know, I'll be able to do it next month, or, you know, next month will be good, or, you know, we'll make it work. We love each other. It's. It'll be fine.
Libby Sinback:
Well. And we're in this for the long haul, right?
Drew:
And we're in this for the long haul.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Drew:
And then when it just happens with someone else and it seems easy, you know, there's a lot there.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Do you remember what was the moment or moments or, like, things that really were getting to you initially?
Drew:
I just think the attention and the time and the. I don't know. It's hard to say. You know, there was one real turning point where it really hit me, and that was the time that we were all at kind of a small gathering.
Libby Sinback:
Together for my birthday.
Drew:
For your birthday. And I left to go home early.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Drew:
And, you know, you stayed. And, you know, there was sex, and I. You know, for some reason, I stayed up late that night.
Libby Sinback:
So when you left, did you know that there was stuff happening? Like, I can't even remember.
Drew:
Yeah, I think so.
Libby Sinback:
You did.
Drew:
Mm.
Libby Sinback:
Okay. And so you left. Stuff was happening without you with me and Tom and my other partner. Yeah.
Drew:
I also remember I couldn't reach you that night. Like, I texted you once or twice and never got a response.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, yeah.
Drew:
And then, you know, in the morning, you know, the three of you showed up, and it seemed. It seemed all very chummy, and I felt kind of like an outsider.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Yeah.
Drew:
And I think that was really the trigger.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Feeling like an outsider.
Drew:
Yeah. And I. You know, looking back on it now, and we'll probably get into this later, like, it was triggering feelings that I had had before. Right. But that I hadn't had in our relationship.
Libby Sinback:
Right. Yeah. Yeah. So that was a new. It was a new feeling that we'd never had between us before.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
That was a big, like, whoa for you.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. So there was, like, the focused attention that I was giving the relationship. There was the amount of time I was spending, maybe thinking about it, talking about it, spending time with Tom, et cetera. Was I. Was I spending, like, too much time with him? Did you feel like I was neglecting, like, our family or like, you or anything like that?
Drew:
There were times when, you know, I was trying to get ahold of you for some family thing, and you were with Tom, and you just seemed, you know, in that experience and not.
Libby Sinback:
Not on my phone. Yeah. And not responding to texts. So sometimes it was, like, hard to get ahold of me.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Drew:
And again, you know, that. That happens, but it does. It was also triggering.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. And that makes sense, like. And I think that's a common thing, particularly for couples who are in our dynamic where we are living together. So, like, we're around each other a lot, which means you don't. It's not like, when I'm home, I'm never on my phone. Right. So it's not like you never saw me on my phone with Tom. But then on vice versa, because there's this time that Tom and I are spending together without you where I'm.
Libby Sinback:
Okay.
Drew:
Sometimes you would be on your phone with me, and I'd be like, oh, you're on your phone a lot when you're around me.
Libby Sinback:
Well, that's what I mean. That's what I'm saying. I'm saying, like, I would be on my phone with Tom while you were around, and so you'd see me doing that. But then when I was with him and you were trying to reach me, I was not responsive because I was. I was away and I was focused. So. Yeah, that makes sense. That would also, like, even just noticing that discrepancy.
Drew:
And I think also around that time, you started using a lot of language of, like, this is this. I've never, you know, had. This has never happened to me before. I've never felt this way before. This has never worked for me sexually this way before.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Drew:
And that's when it started to get really.
Libby Sinback:
So that was hard for you?
Drew:
Hard. Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Well, so what were some of the things that you were feeling?
Drew:
You know, it's so weird. Cause I look back at it now and, like, even. Even then, I probably had these thoughts, like, I never set out to be like, the. A number one sex tabber. You know, that was never. It was never like, logically important to me that you and I, like, have the best sexual relationship of our lives together.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Drew:
You know, that will. That we have ever had or will ever have with any other person. And yet, you know, those. Those feelings were there anyway, as if that was the case.
Libby Sinback:
Well, and what feelings? You mean like feelings of, like, inadequacy or feelings of like, oh, I'm not the best and something like that, or.
Drew:
I mean, there were real feelings of abandonment, you know.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Drew:
Like, I felt like our sexuality was kind of a journey that we were on together.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Drew:
And now I was increasingly not part of that journey or not relevant to it, you know, for you.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, okay. Yeah, that makes sense. So it's like when I was going on a journey on my own that made you feel left behind.
Drew:
Yeah. Even though, like, you know, my values and. And what I want out of relationship is for you to be able to go on journeys and have those journeys be great. And like, I am someone that I. I think experiences a lot of compersion, like, tremendous amount of comparison.
Libby Sinback:
I know, I know. Yeah. Yeah.
Drew:
Sometimes to the point that it's a problem. Yeah, yeah. But it wasn't working right.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Well, and that makes sense. Like, that there was this, like, dissonance between how you, like, wanted to feel and how you were actually feeling, where, like, you wanted to feel happy for me and instead you felt abandoned.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
What were some other stuff you felt?
Drew:
I don't know. I mean, like, things kept working out in ways that seemed just thematically hurtful. You know, there'd be times when I wanted you and you weren't there, or I wanted things from you emotionally, sexually, attention wise that I wasn't getting. And, you know, things developed on from there in terms of. We haven't even talked about yet that you were. You. This whole relationship kind of inspired you to take stock of what you wanted.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Well, but I want to actually stay with that thing that you just said there because I think that's. I think that what you're describing is something like. It's worth talking about a little bit. Okay. Because the way that I experienced that was really different.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
And what I think you were experiencing, and I want you to correct me if I'm wrong, is that like, before Tom, I think I was always seeking you out a little bit more than you were seeking me out. And so if you wanted me, I was pretty much available, you know, and. And so. And sometimes you were actually like, I'm busy. Like, I need some space. You know, like, you were often asking me for space, and then that just flipped where now you wanted me. And I. It's not that I didn't want you, it's just that I wasn't, like, asking constantly.
Libby Sinback:
And so the polarity shifted, and then suddenly you were in this place where you had to start asking for my time and my energy and attention, and that didn't feel good.
Drew:
Yeah. And I'm not good at asking.
Libby Sinback:
Right, right. Well. And how great that for a long time in our relationship, you didn't have to.
Drew:
Right.
Libby Sinback:
You know, I wanted to. I wanted you so much that I was, like, honestly over functioning to get what I wanted. And then I stopped doing that because I was getting what I wanted somewhere else without having to do that.
Drew:
Some of the things you want.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Not everything. No, absolutely not.
Drew:
And I mean, we were. We were like, raising kids and doing that was a lot and still are. And for me, you know, there were times in my life where I was like, there's work and then there's kids. Like, that's it.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Drew:
How's there time for anything else?
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, yeah.
Drew:
And suddenly for you, there was.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, well, and. And it was. And it was. I mean, I talk about this in the episode, but, like, it was just lighting me up inside in a way that, like, I had no idea how much I needed.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. But I can. But I think, like, what you're outlining now, it helps me understand, like, why that was hard for you and it was hard for you to be happy for me, because it was just flipping so much on its head for you and also kicking up old stuff, which we'll talk about later, too. But then, yeah, let's add on the other layer of pain. Right. There was another layer of pain. So all that was happening, and then we stopped having sex. Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, that. We stopped having sex because that was the one place where the polarity was never flipped. You always wanted more sex with me than I wanted to have with you. And it wasn't because, like, I didn't care about our sexual relationship or I wasn't interested in that with you. In fact, I really wanted that to continue to grow and flourish.
Drew:
Well, I mean, I think some of our interpersonal conflicts started to show up in, you know, the last few times that we had sex. Like, it became, you know, awkward and contentious and that. That's like.
Libby Sinback:
Well, and. Well, yeah. And I mean, I think so many things. And this is just normal for any domestically partnered couple, especially a domestically partnered couple raising young, neurodivergent kids. There was just so many things for us to have friction around or to have disappointment around or to have frustration around. And also there was just stress. And so I remember during that time.
Drew:
We could never do our best on everything we were trying to do.
Libby Sinback:
No. And.
Drew:
And then it was disappointing.
Libby Sinback:
Well. And. And I was tired a lot. Like, I was just tired. I was so tired. And I think you were tired. And I think then we just showed up to sex wanting it to be effortless, and it wasn't effortless because of some differences that we have in how we work and different stories that we had about how sex was supposed to happen and what it was supposed to be like and ways in which we struggled to communicate about that with each other. Like, so many things got in the way, and.
Libby Sinback:
And then I still feel like I had to do it.
Drew:
Right.
Libby Sinback:
Like, I still feel like I have to do this. And honestly, when I started dating Tom, I felt even more like I had to do it because I didn't want you to feel like I had abandoned our sex life. But then there was a certain point where I realized I can't do this if I feel like I have to do it. That's gonna destroy. That's gonna actually destroy it.
Drew:
Well, and my aversion to asking and pushing directly for what I want, you know.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, that was the problem.
Drew:
Was a real problem in that. Because the reason that I have that is in part because, you know, I have a history of, you know, not wanting to do that, not wanting to impose. Not wanting to impose or pressure. And, like, I hate. I hate that idea.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Drew:
You know.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. And then. But if it has to be my idea and I'm tired, forget it. Forget it. But. But I would still push myself anyway. And I think it was when I was realizing, I'm not enjoying this. I'm not enjoying pushing myself.
Libby Sinback:
I'm not enjoying what happens when I do. And. And then, you know, there is the me realizing I'm on the ACE Spectrum thing, and me just understanding, like, for me, there are, like, from. I. The. Really. The way I contextualize my asexuality now is that there's just such a huge pile of breaks between me and sex, and there's so many other things that are way less effortful. And when I can get past all the breaks, it's quite enjoyable.
Libby Sinback:
I love it. It's wonderful. But it's so hard sometimes to get past those breaks that for me, I'm like, it is totally not worth it. And. And some of the breaks are things like fucking patriarchy. You know, some of the breaks are what's happening in the world with how shitty our public officials are and what we hear about those kinds of things. Like, those can like, make me go. I never want to anybody to touch me ever again.
Libby Sinback:
Like, that's sometimes how I feel. And I also just don't have, like, that thing that I don't have that drive that I think tech. I hear that allosexual people do of, like, you know, I see somebody, I feel horny. I just want to bone. Do something to that that just doesn't happen inside me like that. Like, it's more like, hmm, let's do this art project together. If it's going to be a good art project, and we have similar ideas about what kind of art we want to make, then sure. And so I think that, you know, I expressed that to you.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
You know, that that's where I was at. And I think that then you were like, I was.
Drew:
You know, I was struggling both to respect that. And again, like, when you find out your partner has identified a new thing about themselves, like, they're quee. They're on the A spectrum. You know, you want to be a good partner, Be like, oh, gosh, you know, that's. I want to be a good, supportive partner to this person with this identity, because I love them. But at the same time, you know, it felt like you were kind of taking stock and a reset and, you know, you were keeping the things that you liked. And I didn't make the cut.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, yeah.
Drew:
I was on the side with patriarchy.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, no.
Drew:
Tom was on the other side, somehow immune from that.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. And what was that like?
Drew:
It was hard.
Libby Sinback:
I mean, you can get more dramatic than that.
Drew:
It felt ins. It felt insulting. Um, I felt. It made me feel dirty.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, honey. Yeah. I was thinking, like, that would just be a dagger to my heart.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. And. And, like, I hate that. And, like, you can hear me saying it now, and we can talk about it now, and I hope you can hear that. Like, that wasn't what was happening for me.
Drew:
I know.
Libby Sinback:
You know. Okay. I know you know, but, like, I could. Like, it's so. It's. It's just like, I can also see that, like, how. And it makes so much sense even as you're saying it now. Like, one of the things you would tell me over and over again is it's like, I just don't feel like you're seeing me.
Libby Sinback:
I just don't feel like you're seeing me. And now hearing you say, like, yeah, I grouped you over with, you know, patriarchy, rape culture. And the thing is, it was somewhat true, but not in the way that you're Describing it. It was true in the sense that I had shown up to our sexual dynamic with you with all that shit.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Undealt with in me. And then was acting out patterns inside of our sexual connection that were repeating that. And there were aspects of how that was, you know, how that was amplified by, like, our domestic dynamic. And, I mean, you can see how.
Drew:
It was kind of a whiplash for me in my identity, in our relationship, because when we first got together, part of the reason you were excited about me was like, oh, wait, this guy doesn't mind if other people see me naked. Doesn't mind if I date or fall in love or make out with other people. Like, you know, it's okay to get this person aroused and then for nothing to happen. Like, that's not a bad thing. Yeah. I felt like you were bragging about me.
Libby Sinback:
Whew. And then it all changed. And then it all changed. And you said it was like torture.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, that makes sense. And I guess maybe. I don't know how much you want to say about this, but, like, when you think about those dark nights of the soul where you were really struggling, I guess it just. Is there anything you want to say about that? Just. Just for other people to hear what that can be like?
Drew:
We spent a lot of time. Dark nights of staying up way too late, even though we were already exhausted, you know, trying to hash it out and not getting anywhere over and over and over. I think. I can't remember exactly when we made the rule that we've, you know, we've still broken a couple of times. Like after a certain hour.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. No. No difficult conversations after 9:30.
Drew:
No new thoughts.
Libby Sinback:
No new thoughts. Yeah, that's. Yep. Yeah, I remember I'd never seen you like that before. Like, I'd never seen. Yeah. I'd never seen you that way before. And I felt so thrown for a loop.
Libby Sinback:
And I felt. I also felt mad. I felt really mad about it because I was like, oh, now, now you are, like, upset and wanting to shift things and change things.
Drew:
And, you know, I mean, I think before that. I mean, this isn't about our sexual relationship.
Libby Sinback:
I.
Drew:
Two things happened to us on my end. One is that I got a job that I was really into. I've never had a job that I was, like, proud of and excited about before. And so I poured a lot of energy into that. And you definitely felt less for me because of that job, which you helped me get, by the way.
Libby Sinback:
Well, but there were also, I think, a lot of things you told me this. Before that, there were a lot of things I was telling you that I needed from you, whether it was attentional or emotional or logistical. Like, it's not that you were not. I don't think you were in any way, like, not a participant in all the aspects of, like, domestic life. Like, you know, there's a lot on the Internet about, like, the mental load and how a lot of spouses, husbands especially, are, like, checked out of that and that they're not socialized to care. And I don't feel like that was true in our relationship. And at the same time, there were lots of moments where it felt true, where I was like, yeah, in this thing, I am holding all of it, and I didn't actually ask to. And, yeah, in this thing, I feel really alone and, like, unsupported.
Libby Sinback:
And then, like, you.
Drew:
You decided that certain things needed to be done and had to happen, and I. I wasn't there with you.
Libby Sinback:
No. You kind of crapped on it sometimes.
Drew:
Yeah. And because I didn't want to do. Do all those extra things, but. But then it. Then it got to be, you know, looking for childcare coverage that we both needed and more logistical things that absolutely needed to be done. And I was not on top of those. No, I was not proactive, and you were.
Libby Sinback:
And again, I was, like, I was asking, and I was saying what I needed. And I know I wasn't saying it in the best ways. I know that I hadn't learned yet, really, how to express myself with compassion and understanding and not with criticism, that kind of thing, but I think you got the message. And a thing you told me was you were like, I am gonna work on that, just not right now. I am gonna work on that, just not right now. And then a thing that I remember you telling me you felt when Tom showed up and I sent him articles and he read them, was you said, oh, shit, I think I missed my window. Like, did I miss my chance to start showing up? I was going to start showing up in some of these ways, and now I feel like you're not gonna notice if I do.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
And that was a big fear you had that, like, even if you did shift at this point, I wasn't gonna care.
Drew:
Yeah. You are a person who, when you're focused on something, people can say things and you won't hear them at all.
Libby Sinback:
That's true. I have adhd.
Drew:
Well. And I felt when Tom was around, I was less visible, like, as a person, and I would say things, and you literally out loud to you and you literally wouldn't hear them.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. And, like, that.
Drew:
That feeling happened a lot.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. And unfortunately, that happens with everybody, not just you. And, like. And not just Tom. Like, that is a feature of how my brain works. But I can see, like, with all that other stuff piled onto it, that you would see it as I'm looking at him and not at you, when really, I just. I just have adhd. But, yeah, so.
Libby Sinback:
So this was hard. Yeah, it was really hard. And I will tell you, just for people listening, I've. I've shared this before. I will share it again. I will share it again until the day I die. Honey, did it work for you at all when I just explained what was going on for me? Did that. Did that calm you down? Did you accept that? Were you able to, like, if I just.
Libby Sinback:
If you were telling me, I feel like you're not looking at me, I feel like you're not seeing me. I feel abandoned, you know, or whatever you were expressing, did it help for me to say, oh, no, you're not abandoned. Oh, no, I'm not doing that. That's not happening?
Drew:
That's a complicated question, actually, because I both see what you're saying, which is that, no, it wasn't easy for me to see your perspective.
Libby Sinback:
No, you'd argue with me.
Drew:
But it also did help. It did help for.
Libby Sinback:
Well, now you're ruining everything.
Drew:
But it helped that you were still there for me, that we still showed up for each other in a lot of ways, that we were still, you know, caring and effective, that I was.
Libby Sinback:
Willing to hash it out with you instead of just going, whatever, you're not gonna get it. Forget it. I wanna talk to you.
Drew:
Yeah. When I was willing to say, hey, this really helps. You were right there listening, and you made.
Libby Sinback:
Well, what. I'm talking about a specific. I'm talking about a specific thing, though, which is, like, if you were having a big feeling, and then I would get upset about your big feeling and tell you why you didn't need to feel that way.
Drew:
Oh, yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Usually that doesn't actually fix your feeling. No, it usually just makes you not feel seen and heard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the thing is, like. And. And I think this is a skill we both have had to learn and are still, I think, practicing with each other is this ability to, like, hear someone's experience and interpretation of us and the pain that they're trying to tell us about, and then we need to go, oh, I see, you're in pain. Let me be with that. Instead of, hey, that pain that you're feeling, it's based on a story that's not true.
Libby Sinback:
Can I fix that story for you real quick? And then I'm sure the pain will go away.
Drew:
Oh, yeah. And I'm. I'm a. I'm a. My brain is exactly like that. Anyone is upset, I'm like, oh, let me give you all the information you seem to be missing.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. But that doesn't even.
Drew:
So you can. You can. You can reorient your way of seeing things with that information, but it doesn't.
Libby Sinback:
Even work for you when someone does that with you sometimes. Yeah. Not if you're really upset.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
So anyway, I think that is one thing that shifted things is stopping trying to get on the same page on the story and recognize we were having two different experiences of the same thing. And that was really hard because I hate that. I hate when you don't see it the way I see it, and there's nothing I can do to help you see it the other way. And I think you were feeling the same way about me. Like, you were, like, pointing things out and saying, I think this is happening. And I was like, it's not. And you're like, but look at this. This and this and this.
Libby Sinback:
And I. You know, and so we would have a lot of fights like that. Yeah. And I remember one really hard time that scared the crap out of me when you started saying things like, you know, maybe I should just stop loving you.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
So that I won't.
Drew:
It was even just a trap being. You know, stop leaning into being attracted to you.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Drew:
You know, stop.
Libby Sinback:
Stop feeling things for you. Yeah.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
I remember that's what you said. It's like, maybe I just shut off my feelings and that'll be better and I'll be able to survive this.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. And that really scared me because I really.
Drew:
I didn't. I didn't. I don't think I expected it to scare you necessarily.
Libby Sinback:
But that's funny because, like, I. Because. Because, like, when you said that, I was like, wait a minute, I'm still in love with you. What do you mean? Shut off your feelings? That. That sounds really horrible. Although, you know, even as I'm saying it now, if you had done that, it would have fixed the polarity back in your favor.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
But it would have felt like shit, so I'm glad you didn't.
Drew:
No, it wasn't something I was seriously considering.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Drew:
Just popped into my head, one of those logical things to practice.
Libby Sinback:
And I think. I think it's Important to share just because I think that's what a lot of people feel sometimes. Like when you're in pain. Well, maybe I just have to numb everything so I don't have to feel because that's better than the pain and that makes sense. But you chose something else. And I wonder if you'd be willing to talk about how you got there. Like, what were some of the turning points for you that helped you not choose that?
Drew:
You say that there were three. Yeah, I mean, I can't think of them in order.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, there's not an order.
Drew:
I mean, one. One was like the self reflection of like, why is this hitting me so hard? One of those, one of those ways was definitely looking into my past relationships. Looking, looking at all the times like, you know, I had big romantic attraction to people and it hadn't worked out. And some of the things that happened around it, my, my previous marriage, like one of the things that wasn't the cause of, but was definitely in there for me in the mix was my wife becoming close to another person who I was also close to and realizing that, like, hey, no, I, I still, that still messed me up in ways that make this impact way bigger than necessarily it should, you know, And I.
Libby Sinback:
I remember when you told me that insight that you had, and I remember going, oh my gosh, that makes so much sense. Cause it's like our brains kind of are always trying to map a novel experience onto something we already know. And so you were in a situation that was totally new, but your brain had had an experience of something really similar, different in a lot of significant ways, but felt similar. And so of course your brain would go, oh, this is that. And that was devastating.
Drew:
Yeah. And that guy and Tom both had beard.
Libby Sinback:
I know.
Drew:
But like, yeah, your brain is like, like that on, on a certain level, it's. It's like it tries to find all the different connections and doesn't tell you it's doing that. No, it just does.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Drew:
Um, and so digging into that was really important because I was like, hey, wait, wait, wait. There's clearly a disconnect between how big my feelings are and what I intellectually think about the situation, which I, I'm someone that has a lot of compass capacity for compersion. And like, like, I, I love seeing you dance with other people. Like, I am not ever going to be as good as the dancers that you, you dance with. But like, I, it's. It's incredible to watch, to watch you with a really good dancer. And I love dancing with you and like, none of that is a big problem for me.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Drew:
You know, and intellectually, like, and, and my, to my values, like, I fully supported you being able to explore whatever was going well for you, you know, like making you happy. I wanted to support that. I wanted to support that relationship. I went out of my way to make space and, you know, provide childcare at times and schedule around to make it so that you had time even when things were complicated on your end. You know, we don't have to get into those complications. But like, you had to figure out ways to see each other and what was too much and too little. And yeah, I was on board for that because I valued that. I valued vacationing altogether, but these big failings were still going on.
Drew:
So realizing that what parts of me were being activated was really important and a big turning point. In some ways, it was a relief to realize that it's like, oh, oh, yeah, wait, I've been through stuff like this before, right? Several times, actually.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, yeah.
Drew:
And I haven't handled it well any of those times.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Drew:
It's not surprising that I wouldn't handle it well this time.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I think plenty of people would say that even, even without, like, you, you know, imprinting what happened in the past on what was currently happening, that there's ways in which it was just objectively hard. Yeah, yeah. But I think it's so important what you said about, like, but like, intellectually, on paper, with my value system, this was okay for me.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Like, this wasn't, it wasn't outside of our agreements. It wasn't outside of what, you know, we were hoping for in our, in our non monogamy journey. So. Yeah, I, I, you know, I think that's important to say.
Drew:
I mean, part of that too is like, I want to think of you as like a full and whole person and not someone that I control. And I want to think about you going out and doing things that bring you joy or feel like the, you know, the arrow, where the arrow of fate is leading you. In part because I want you to enjoy that in me.
Libby Sinback:
I wish you'd said some of this stuff when we, you didn't say any of this when this was all happening. I love hearing it now.
Drew:
Well, it requires doing a lot of thinking about things and having had this conversation a lot.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So second.
Drew:
Well, and then I'm transitioning into the second thing, which is that, you know, I, I also started having a relationship that was really, like, exciting and fulfilling for me. And that put me in your shoes in a little bit. Right. It made it way easier to recognize that. Oh, I, I'm loving this relationship with this other person. It's great. I'm getting a lot of things out of it, but it hasn't changed how I feel about Libby at all.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Drew:
In fact, I still, you know, there's still things that I want with Libby that we don't have.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Drew:
And realizing, oh well, yeah, that makes a lot more sense that when she's telling me that's how she feels too.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. You know that it's actually true.
Drew:
Like you had. Yeah, I was lucky enough to actually experience that and have like the physiological evidence of like. Oh no, that's not a silly thing. You don't, you don't just forget about someone else. I, I know this intellectually, you don't just. Cuz you, you know, you have a second kid doesn't mean like the first kid gets tossed out the window.
Libby Sinback:
So that helped. And that's not always. Like, I sometimes wonder about that one. Like, what would have happened if that hadn't happened? Like, how much harder would it have been if you didn't have like a proof of concept in your own body and your own system and your own heart? Yeah, I don't know.
Drew:
I don't know. And then, you know, all throughout this, I think there was a process of me doing what I often do when I do my best work in dealing with, you know, big emotional crises, is leaning in, you know, leaning into our relationship, leaning into the things that I knew I could do. Well, that I could. That actually made me feel good to do rather than, you know, complaining about what is or isn't happening with us or how we're working or not, or what I'm doing or what you're doing or what you're feeling. Like, what am I doing in this relationship, you know, leaned into being an even better like, collaborator with you in parenting stuff. Like, I think that's something that's really always brought us really close together, is feeling like, gosh, we're a good, we're a good team. When I sit down and take control of what I want and what I want to do in a relationship, why am I here? What really feels good to me is me putting in the work to have a relationship with you, not what you are capable of or up for or happening at any given day. There's great value in the stuff that I do that makes you happy.
Drew:
And you tell me, makes you happy, that's really fulfilling. And not because I'm hoping to get something out of it in return.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Drew:
You know.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Drew:
Or fix. Or fix anything.
Libby Sinback:
Any.
Drew:
Any promise of anything being fixed.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Can I just tell you, like, that's, like, when you said that. I mean, I always get a little bit teary when you say that, because I really. I mean, obviously, we. We all go through these periods of, like, ups and downs, or we go through periods of time where one person has the energy to, like, put a lot more effort into the relationship and someone else may not. And that's not about how much you might love each other or how much you care. It's just about whatever you might have in that given moment. It's, like, about capacity or ability.
Libby Sinback:
I know if we were keeping score, I can't even. I mean, like, at any given time, if you, like, pause the scorecard, somebody's in the red and somebody's in the black.
Drew:
Keeping a calendar is about all we have the energy for. Keeping score on top of that would be statistical nightmare.
Libby Sinback:
So that's interesting. I think what I'm hearing you say is, like, you decided to start, like, the. And it was what you said at the beginning of the episode. Right. It's like the shift you did from. I'm no longer gonna be exclusively focused on what I get from my partner. What I am getting from my partner not getting just, like, what am I receiving, but also, like, what she's feeling or what she's thinking. Moment to moment.
Libby Sinback:
That's not gonna be my gauge of whether I'm okay or not okay. I'm instead gonna turn towards what makes me feel okay or not okay. Like, did I show up as a partner the way that I wanted to, and did that make me feel good? Did it land with Libby or not? Don't know. It's not that you don't care, but, like, that's not what it's about for you. Am I getting that?
Drew:
Yeah, exactly.
Libby Sinback:
So, like, what you're telling me is you were feeling like I was putting you through torture, and then I wasn't stopping, even though I could see that it was putting you through torture and I wasn't having sex with you to fix it and make you feel better.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
So you weren't getting that, and then what you decided to do is say, I'm going to show up even more for Libby. I'm going to show up and see what kind of husband I can really be.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
You don't feel like a chump for doing that?
Drew:
No. Because it's for me. I Mean, it's stuff that I know you like, but I like being a caretaker. And that's not actually a part of myself that's connected to sex. In fact, those are, like, two completely different avenues. Like, if I go into my caretaker mode, we're probably not gonna have sexy times. Cause I'm not there.
Libby Sinback:
Right.
Drew:
I've gone off in the caretaker direction.
Libby Sinback:
Right, right, right.
Drew:
But it is a really empowering part of my personality and I feel really good doing it, you know?
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Yeah. And all of these things are, like, really beautiful and have been for me, really beautiful ways to feel thought of. And I think that was one of. One of my pain points was. Was not feeling thought of. I think that was, like. That was one of my.
Libby Sinback:
I mean, for me, it's wild because, again, I never left you.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
I was going through my own experience, but I never left us, and I never left you. At the same time, I was very afraid you were going to leave me. And when you instead decided not to just not leave me and not to try to figure out how to be stably miserable with me, but instead when you said, I'm gonna show up for you. Yeah, like, that. That changed a lot for me.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Hey, real quick, before we get back to the episode. If you've been listening to this show for a while and you've been nodding along but then feeling stuck and making these ideas part of your reality, well, I made something for you. It's a workbook based on the most popular episodes of the show, with simple practices and reflection questions so that you can apply this stuff to your life. Just head to Libby sinback.com workbook and grab your copy. So, you know, we went through that hard time and you hung with it. I hung with it. We hung with each other.
Libby Sinback:
I didn't break up with Tom. Still with Tom. Our relationship's changed in recent years, but it didn't change because of anything between you and me. So what would you say is what helped get us from the other side of the hard. Like, it wasn't so hard to where we are now, which is kind of like, I don't know, madly in love with each other.
Drew:
I mean, I think we had a lot of, like. Like, transactional stuff to work through. Like, specifically the relationship work of, like, when you get upset. That's, like, triggering for me. I hate it when people get upset. Why do they do that? See, I get irritated. That's different than getting upset. We had to work through that like that.
Libby Sinback:
Well, we're still working and we're still.
Drew:
Working through irritating somebody, but at least now, now we know that we're like on the same team.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Drew:
And working through it.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. And. And we're better at halting and rather than letting it just escalate.
Drew:
Yeah. So there was that. I think there was also just like the task of being parents and us both working hard on that. And you worked really hard on it. Especially times when it was, like, really painful.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Drew:
And me finding ways to, like, step up, take over things, take things off your plate so that we really felt like we were operating as a unit. Like, that's not sexy stuff at all. It's anti.
Libby Sinback:
Well, well, it may not be sexy. It may not be sexy to you, but actually it's very sexy to me. It's very sexy when you do the dishes or. Ah. Wait, wait.
Drew:
What it is.
Libby Sinback:
Wait, wait, wait. You know, it's really sexy to me.
Drew:
What?
Libby Sinback:
The sexiest thing you maybe have ever done for me ever. What is when you showed me my underwear drawer.
Drew:
Oh, yeah.
Libby Sinback:
That you had, Listen, Drew. Meticulously folded in Marie Kondo style every pair of underwear that I had so that it was all, you know, the edge of it was facing up so I could just take. And he still does this. He didn't do it once and then stopped doing it. He does the laundry for our family and he freaking folds my underwear like that every time. And it is magic. It is so. Are you kidding me? That's.
Libby Sinback:
That is sexy. Maybe. I think you still. I think you find it sexy too.
Drew:
I think you.
Libby Sinback:
I think you get a lot of gratification folding my underwear. I do, but it is. That is. I mean, that is magic. That is. That is magic.
Drew:
And yeah, let me. Let me tell you folks, laundry is a good task. A good task to take over because it's methodical, a little bit engineering. Like, if you have the kind of brain that's like mine, it's a great time to just, you know, listen to music or even just not listen to anything. Just like, be good at folding and think your thoughts and it's great, great mental health practice.
Libby Sinback:
Whereas I, like, hate laundry so much because I can't. I can't remember to take the wet clothes out of the washer and put them in the dryer. I'll put them in the washer. I'll be like, all inspired. I'll sort my laundry, I'll put it in, and then I'll forget about it for three days and then it'll stink. So thank God that I'm not the One doing it like this is.
Drew:
I don't let that happen.
Libby Sinback:
Well, and I mean, so I would actually even say that I think one big way that, like that that you're describing right there is a big way that, I don't know, I felt better about our relationship was when I felt like the domestic and mental load was divided more fairly between us, and it wasn't anybody's fault that it got divided unfairly between us. But I think that that actually really made a big difference. And I actually would, I would even say that another thing that made a big difference was both of us, you know, going through the stuff that we went through with our kids, like discovering that one of our kids is autistic and like, that really causing us to look at ourselves and understand ourselves in a new way. And learning how to accommodate him made us also think about maybe accommodating each other. And in general, I think, you know, a thing that I think I've grown into a lot. I think you're better at this than I am, but it's a thing that I've grown into a lot is really like accepting and celebrating and honoring differences and respecting them. Because sometimes I really do think my way is the best way to do things, or I think my ideas are the best ideas.
Drew:
And whereas I, I, I know that mine are, but I just, But I also strongly believe in letting people have self determination. And so I don't speak up about it.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, I mean, one, I mean, I.
Drew:
Just am like, why did you do that? Oh, God.
Libby Sinback:
You just act annoyed. You just act irritated, which is for me the worst, because then I just feel judged and reprimanded and wrong.
Drew:
Don't you see how that's gonna prevent this from happening in this. We're gonna run out of time for this.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, God, yeah.
Drew:
I've already planned it all out. Why can't you see the downstream effects of these choices?
Libby Sinback:
Well, and it's funny, I think we both actually hold that value of everybody gets to be who they are and gets to make their own choices, even if they aren't the choices I would make. I think we hold that as a value and I think we both struggle to, like, actually live into it inside ourselves sometimes. Because it would be so much easier if you just saw what I saw and did what I would do, because then I wouldn't have to tell you, and then we wouldn't have to have a disagreement about it. And I think we've gotten, I think we've gotten better at navigating that.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
I think I have gotten better at navigating that. I think there were times where you really just didn't feel respected, like, for who you are and how you are.
Drew:
A lot of self knowledge goes a long way in all your relationships because you are a little more humble about. Oh, yeah, it's upsetting to me, but there's reasons why it's upsetting to me. I've figured out what those are. They're not shared by everybody. And I understand better why that thing is so upsetting for you.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Drew:
And just knowing it, being able to say it.
Libby Sinback:
Ooh, you know, you said something really good there, which, you know, I'm gonna sum it up, which is like a really good way to respect differences in other people is to understand yourself. To understand. To understand yourself as being, you know, just you. Because I think a lot of times we generalize our internal experience out to everybody else. Like, everybody must feel this way. Like, everybody must be really annoyed when are talking on top of each other because obviously that scrambles my brain so much. It obviously scrambles everybody else's brain. But like, when you understand.
Libby Sinback:
And I think that's where the neurodivergent stuff comes in. Like when you think about neurodiversity and you understand, oh, no, like, you have one neurotype, I have another. Certain things that would make you crazy, I thrive on. And like, we had to understand that for our kids sake. But I think us understanding that for each other and for ourselves, like, I needed to understand. Oh, not everybody wants this thing that I want in this way that I want it. Not everybody has an easy time with things that I find easy. And you know, and so it's like honoring, like, hey, this might cost you a lot to do it this way.
Libby Sinback:
Are you still, you know, but it's, that's.
Drew:
I mean, to tie it back to.
Libby Sinback:
Sex, like, that's so true.
Drew:
Recognizing that you don't. You don't like the way that I want you is not the same way that you want me. You still want me, but it's different. It works differently. And like, we gotta find ways to make those things work together or we gotta talk to each other about, like, hey, let's do it. Let's. Let's do this for me.
Libby Sinback:
Well, yeah. Yeah, let's do this for you. I mean, that's Betty Martin's Wheel of Consent. And that has been so useful for me to articulate because I think you historically were just so focused on my experience as, like, your experience. Like, my experience was your experience. Like My pleasure was where you derived your pleasure. And then I didn't know where my pleasure was for me, you know? And, like, it's like you wanted to do something with me that you wanted me to enjoy, but then where was what I wanted or what I enjoyed in any of that? And then also, where was.
Drew:
Whereas I.
Libby Sinback:
Where is what was. And then where was your experience, too?
Drew:
Whereas I, you know, my thinking, like, that's, like, altruistic. I care so very much about pleasing you or what. What's going on.
Libby Sinback:
But it was smothering.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, it was.
Drew:
It's not altruistic. It's just unclear. It's muddied.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, like, I'm totally willing to, like, create an agreement, like, if we're gonna do something together. And you are like, I really wanna do this, and I want you to enjoy it. And I'll be like, cool, I can do that for you.
Drew:
Yeah. And enjoy it.
Libby Sinback:
And enjoy it. But it's for you. It's a gift for you. And the experience is your experience. As long as you're clear on that, then, sure, I'm down. But then if it's about me, what I might want to do is, you know, go for a walk. If it's for me, or if it's for me, maybe I want to just, like, roll around with her underwear on. I don't know.
Libby Sinback:
Like. Or I might want to do more than that. I mean, I might want to do more than that. But, yeah, for me. Yeah, Sex is, like, not the top way that I want to connect. I mean, I think it's fun, but.
Drew:
I think maybe that's. Maybe that's another addendum to put onto all this. It's like, we tried to find ways to connect and be romantic and close hard that didn't involve sex.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Rather than treating our sex life as something broken that we needed to fix, that I needed to fix, because that was obviously the problem.
Drew:
It's like, let's get really, really damn good at cuddling. Or, you know, we are really good at cuddling.
Libby Sinback:
We're. We're really great cuddlers. Or playful.
Drew:
Playfulness.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah, playfulness. Like wrestling or tickling or, you know, scratching. Showering together. Making out.
Drew:
But pushing.
Libby Sinback:
But pushing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and I mean, that's just an example. That's a really good example of something that is, for you, very sexy. For you to, like, get my performance muscle to relax.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
And. And. And have me go. And you go, oh, yeah, this is, like, so satisfying. And then yeah. That. I think that we. Us continuing to have experiences like that, Continuing to prioritize.
Libby Sinback:
Okay. We're. We're not connecting over here, but where can we connect? Where can we find us as not just co parents and housemates, but also as lovers?
Drew:
I mean, we also just took some time, you know, here and there to just be together for even a couple of days where we weren't doing the job parent thing every single day.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. That's really important. And it's so hard to do Battlestar.
Drew:
Galacticus 77 minutes thing. Yeah. I mean, the reality is that was. That was. And then when Covid came through, you know, it really felt like every battle all the time.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Drew:
And then we'd be so exhausted by the end.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Yeah.
Drew:
But when. When we took the time out to spend some time together, we were like, oh, gosh. Yeah, we're both really fun people.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah. Right. Yeah. And that. And that, that has been really important. And I think, like, when we were able to lean in, like when you started leaning in, and I think I was also leaning, like, I responded to that. It wasn't like it didn't land with me. I think it was easier for those times that we carved out together to not be times where we were dealing with whatever was hard between us.
Libby Sinback:
We were actually able to put that down and go, let's just be humans with each other. Because we'd been putting money in the bank with each other, basically.
Drew:
Yeah. And none of that either was like, oh, we did these things and boom, our sex life came roaring back. That's not what happened at all.
Libby Sinback:
No. But how is our sex life now?
Drew:
It's good. We have fun.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
It did come back.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Took, let's see, 2018 to 2022.
Drew:
Yeah. I mean, and I think this makes sense, especially with the way you work. There wasn't a point where we were like, okay, we're going to fix this. We're going to make it work.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, no. I would have been like, if you. Well, because that's the whole point, like, for me, and I think this is true for a lot of people. Sex can't be on the to do list.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Like, I'm sure there's someone for whom that is their kink and good for them that it, like, actually does, like, line up. That if I'm checking a. If I'm checking the box, it also checks my box, so to speak. But that was definitely not me. That needed to be coming from a place of all the stress is out of the way. It's over there, and someone has cleared the decks for me, or I have cleared the decks for myself, and then I get to just really sink into what would feel good.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
And whatever that is, is okay. What would. What might feel good could be a cup of hot cocoa or it could be us getting naked. And I think the more. Like, the more and more and more I took off any pressure and you were aware of any way which you could be pressuring, but not on purpose. Like, I don't think you ever, ever mean to be pressuring.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
But I think sometimes when you have a level of desire for me and then you're just staring at me, whether figuratively or literally, waiting for when I'm gonna look at you and say, yeah, let's do it, that feels like pressure to me.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
And when you're able to say, hey, just FYI, I'm horny over here. That's. That's. I just want you to know, like, doing that, it actually, ironically, that doesn't feel pressuring. That feels like you giving me information that then I can do with what I want. And that feels way better than you not saying anything and just being like, when's it gonna happen?
Drew:
Some of that might be in your head, you realize.
Libby Sinback:
Yes, I do. I do. I do. And a thing I've learned, actually, is to check that out with you. If that's happening inside me, I will tell you. Hey, right now I'm imagining that you're just sitting around waiting until I start touching you. And, you know, and you're like, actually, I was thinking about the fall of the Roman Empire. No, no, you're never thinking about.
Drew:
A lot of the time I'm thinking about, why won't you finish? Just come to bed so we can go to sleep.
Libby Sinback:
Well, but I'm thinking. Even, like, you know, when we have our Saturday mornings and, you know, there's no one around, and sometimes I'm worried that you're sitting there, and sometimes you are, but sometimes, like you said, you're not, or you are, but you're not waiting for me. You're just kind of enjoying the feel. Yeah. But again, when I voice it, that sometimes helps you clear it up. Or then it's just. At least I can let the pressure off me. I can say, well, that pressure no longer belongs to me because I've said it out loud and now it's gone.
Libby Sinback:
And then I can think about what I actually want.
Drew:
I'm not sure how helpful this is to any random other people.
Libby Sinback:
I think it's this is very particular.
Drew:
About the way we work.
Libby Sinback:
Oh, sweetie, we're gonna get so many emails. Okay. But yeah, I. I guess like, you. You pointed to these turning points and I guess I wonder if you could just share, like, how you feel now.
Drew:
Yeah, I mean, I feel very clear about what I'm here doing and why I'm here and what I love about our relationship.
Libby Sinback:
And we never fight, right? No.
Drew:
Do you?
Libby Sinback:
We do. Yeah. Yeah, we do.
Drew:
But we. We have a lot that we're accomplishing all the time together. And I think that. That especially, like, you know, there were so many other things that we needed to fix that were just these calamities that came into our lives. You know, kid working through kids school stuff and all the.
Libby Sinback:
My mom getting sick.
Drew:
Yeah. All the having. Having to move and move and all the tasks that, like, it would have seemed ridiculous to, you know, be like. The most important thing is that we change up our sex life or work on that right now.
Libby Sinback:
But that's also important to you. I mean, I think it's important. I mean, I don't want to discount that because I know that was. That was and is important to you and it's. I think it's more important to you than it is to me.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
Like, there's so many other ways that we connect that feel really sacred to me that, like, it's not that I don't care about it, it's just not. It just doesn't rank even in the top five.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
But I think for you it does. And it's. That's hard, right, when we're, like, when we're in different places on that. But I think. And so I guess I just, I don't want you to downplay your own desires and things that are important to you there. And at the same time, I think what was important to you and you correct me if I'm wrong, is that, like, we just didn't let that die. You know, I put it down.
Drew:
No. And there was, you know, at one point we talked about, you know, we came to the point where I was like, hey, I really need you to know that I'm really attracted to you, really horny for you. I just need you to know that.
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Drew:
It's more important for you to know that and like that than it is for you to reciprocate, you know?
Libby Sinback:
Yeah.
Drew:
Because it's something that's true for me.
Libby Sinback:
Well. And, you know, it's interesting that kind of goes back to that thing you were saying before about, like, being for you, like if you can tell me and just say it and own it and feel it, then it's like, it doesn't matter what I do with that or don't do with that, as long as you're allowed to feel that. And that's allowed to be in this space with us. And that's about you.
Drew:
I want you to accept that it's in the space with us. Us and not feel like that has to change where you are.
Libby Sinback:
And then it's not harmful or pressuring and it's not.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
I love that you're obsessed with me and I'm. I mean, I'm obsessed with you too.
Drew:
Yeah.
Libby Sinback:
I never stopped any.
Drew:
Anything that I'm eating I have to have a bite of, even if it's something that, like, I know you won't like.
Libby Sinback:
Come on. Don't air all our dirty laundry to our listeners. Goodness gracious, you're lactose intolerant. Okay. So. Yeah. Any last words for our listeners? No.
Drew:
I'm terrible at questions like that.
Libby Sinback:
I know. Well, thanks for being on.
Drew:
On the.
Libby Sinback:
On the show and sharing your experience.
Drew:
Yeah. I love you.
Libby Sinback:
I love. Thank you for joining me today. If you have any thoughts about what I've said or a question for the show, I'd love to hear from you. You can find me on Instagram @thatpolyammom or you can reach me on the podcast show website@makingpolyamorywork.com I'll also say that if you're loving my podcasts but you're looking for more support, I do this support for a living. I help individuals, couples and groups have amazing relationships. And you can find out more about my offerings on my personal website, libbysinback.com if you love this podcast, please share it with your friends, your networks, your Instagram stories, etc. And make sure you subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Also, if you listen on itunes or Spotify, it's really wonderful to leave a review or a comment because it will help more people find the show.
Libby Sinback:
Making Polyamory Work is created by me, Libby Sinback. It is edited by Finn of the Normalizing Non Monogamy podcast and hosted on the Spotify podcast platform.
